Topic: Is there truth in this?

[alyona]

 "Solved: the mystery of why Stradivarius violins are best";
  By Steve Connor, Science Editor

     They are said to produce unparalleled sound quality. No one has been able to explain why 300-year-old Stradivarius violins have never been matched in terms of musical expressiveness and projection.
   A study has found that the secret may be explained by the consistent density of the front and back of its body, rather than anything to do with the instrument's overall contours, varnish, angle of the neck, fingerboard or strings.
 
Scientists compared five violins made by the Cremonese masters Antonio Stradivari and Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu with seven modern-day instruments by placing them in a medical scanner that could accurately gauge the density of the two wooden plates, the top and the back plate of the body.
They found that, overall, the density of the two groups of violins was the same, but what differed significantly was that the two plates of the older instruments had a more uniform density compared to the more inconsistent densities of the modern plates.
 
The top plate of a violin is usually made of spruce and the back of maple. The scientists believe that the homogenous density of the Cremonese violins gives them the edge in terms of stiffness and sound-damping characteristics, which both help to produce superior musical notes.
 
Violins made by the two Cremonese masters have become the benchmark against which the sound of all other violins are compared. Yet by general consensus no instrument maker since that time has been able to replicate the sound quality of those early violins, said Berend Stoel of Leiden University in the Netherlands.
 
"The vibration and sound-radiation characteristics of a violin are determined by an instrument's geometry and the material properties of the wood. New test methods allow the non-destructive examination of one of the key material properties, the wood density, at the growth ring level of detail," Dr Stoel said.
The CT scanner used is normally employed to study the density of the tissue within a patient's lungs using X-rays. However, Dr Stoel, working with a professional instrument-maker, Terry Borman, of Fayetteville in Arkansas, was able to build up a picture of a violin's density variations using CT scans, which carried no risk to the valuable instruments.
 
"Wood density is difficult to measure directly, as an isolated part of the instrument, wrapped in a waterproof container, must be immersed in water to estimate its volume, and its density is calculated by dividing its weight by this volume," Dr Stoel said.
 
On top of this, this conventional approach to measuring wood density is not able to measure variations within a single plate – which appears to be the difference that may explain the quality of the antique instruments.
Dr Stoel, whose study is published in the online journal Public Library of Science, said the density variations within the wood are caused by the type of wood growth. Early growth in spring is less dense than summer growth, and the antique instruments appear to have a more balanced mix of early and late growth.
 
"Early growth wood is primarily responsible for water transport and thus is more porous and less dense than late growth wood, which plays more of a structural support role of much more closely packed tracheids [the light and dark grain lines of wood]," he said.
 
The rise to fame of a master instrument maker
Antonio Stradivari (c1644-1737) is, with his Italian compatriot Giuseppe Guarneri Del Gesu, the most famed of luthiers. He began crafting stringed instruments in 1680, establishing his workshop in Cremona, Italy, where he stayed until his death aged 93, father to 11 children. He made more than 1,100 instruments – violins, but also cellos, a few violas and a harp – 650 of which survive today. His creations were inscribed with Latin slogans along the lines of Antonius Stradivarius Cremonensis Faciebat Anno [date]. The instruments considered his most expressive were made in the first quarter of the 18th century, but long before then he had established his fame with the "Viotti violin" – first played by Giovanni Battista Viotti at the Tuileries Palace in Paris in 1782, and now valued at £3.5m. Toby Faber, the author of a biography of Stradivari, Five Violins, One Cello and a Genius, believes: "Before Viotti, Stradivari was just one violin-maker among many. After him, everyone wanted to play a Strad." On 16 May 2006, Christie's auctioned a Stradivarius called The Hammer for a record $3.54m (£1.75m).

[Epitome]

No! 

Yet by general consensus no instrument maker since that time has been able to replicate the sound quality of those early violins, said Berend Stoel of Leiden University in the Netherlands.

"Get over yourself Mr Stoel"

[Henrig]

Alyona, Jed and other members,
 
Is there truth in this, click on the following link:

http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/

And listen to the MP3 files you can download.
Listen ... Can You Tell?
Is it a Stradivari or a Nagyvary? Download any of these sets of MP3 files and you decide.

Can you hear the difference?

Henri

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.nagyvaryviolins.com/PUZZLECD.htm

The Stradivarius Puzzle  CD provides a comparison of a Stradivarius violin with a new violin.

made by Dr. Joseph Nagyvary and his associates. 

                                              Program

CD Tracks

                                    J. S. Bach:  Sonata No.1,

1          4:34                                                     Adagio (Strad)

2          5:20                                                     Fugue

                                    I. Stravinsky:  Suite Italienne

3          2:28                                                     Introduzione (Strad)

4          3:24                                                     Serenata (Strad)

5          2:26                                                     Tarantella

6          1:39                                                     Gavotte

7          2:29                                                     Variations (Strad) I and II

8          1:18                                                     Scherzino (Strad)

9          5:06                                                     Minuetto and Finale

10        5:18                 S. A. Sargon*                  Supplication

11        4:16                                                     Lullabye (Strad)

12        4:57                                                     Freilach

13        1:23                 J. V. Wilson              Aggie War Hymn
____________________________________________________

*Composer-in-residence, Southern Methodist University

                                    The performers:

Violinist Zina Schiff has been described by The New York Times as an instrumentalist of "luscious high voltage...vintage Heifetz." The comparison to the legendary Jascha Heifetz is apt, as Ms. Schiff was a Heifetz student and protege. With a special blend of virtuosity, musical integrity, and communicative power, she has dazzled audiences and critics throughout the United States, Eastern and Western Europe, Israel, Australia, and the former Soviet Union. A student of Ivan Galamian at The Curtis Institute of Music, she is the only violinist to have won both the Junior and Senior Auditions of the Philadelphia Orchestra.  Zina has been selected as an "Outstanding Young Artist" by Musical America. Television viewers worldwide saw Zina on the PBS "Nova" program entitled "What is Music?", where she performed the Sibelius Concerto on an experimental violin by Texas A&M  professor Joseph Nagyvary.  Zina's highly acclaimed debut recordings were two compact discs - “The Lark Ascending” and “Bach/Vivaldi” -- with the Israel Philharmonic, performed on a Nagyvary violin. Her latest CDs -- “Here’s One”, a collection of American music, and “King David’s Lyre”, a set of works by Jewish composers - were performed on a 1697 Stradivarius and were selected as Best of 1997 by the American Record Guide.

Mary Barranger has been the in-orchestra pianist for the San Diego Symphony since 1976 and principal pianist for the San Diego Chamber Orchestra since 1988.  With Zina Schiff, she has recorded a disc of music of Cecil Burleigh for the Naxos American Classic Series.

A Solution to the Stradivarius Puzzle

How were uneducated craftsmen like Antonio Stradivari able to create string instruments which are considered superior to anything made by later generations?  Why was their method of violinmaking, seemingly known by all local craftsmen, not transmitted to us but irretrievably lost?  This is the Stradivarius puzzle, one of the great puzzles in the history of civilization and culture.  I have pursued these questions throughout much of my adult life, first as a hobbyist, then as a committed scientist until I found the first answers compatible with historical accounts and scientific analyses.
 
It appears that the art of violinmaking in Cremona during the Golden Years ( ~1550-1750) was shaped by historical coincidences in wood acquisition and preservation.  Stradivari and his colleagues were likely the beneficiaries of a local technology without being aware of it.  For protection against woodworm and mold, chemists were known to apply a chemical solution to the surface of the wood, and this solution was often a slurry made with a powder the alchemists called "the salt of gems".  According to historical accounts from Cremona collected by V. Grivel, these sophisticated materials were provided by the local apothecary to a variety of wood workers.  Presumably, neither the apothecary nor the violinmakers were conscious of the profound acoustical effect of the chemicals which were used routinely on all fine furniture. 
 
This explanation also answers the question of why the supreme method of violinmaking was not passed on to the next generation and became instead "the lost secret."  There is no reason to assume that the Cremona violinmakers  knew more than the German and French luthiers; they had no secret to pass on. It appears to be a matter of lucky coincidences limited to a few geographical locations.  As the technology of wood acquisition changed and violinmakers in Cremona began to use more expedient wood finishing methods, the violin lost the unique feature of the old Italian sound, which is its brilliance.
 
Following fifteen years of historical explorations in Northern Italy, my experimental violin research at Texas A&M University began in 1976 using materials from insect wings and shrimp shells as wood fillers.  The eureka moment of exhilaration came in 1981 when we first had the chance to analyze an authentic specimen from a Guarnerius cello.  We found the wood surface saturated with fine crystals, "the salt of gems", just as predicted.  Since then, mineral fillers have been found in all samples of Cremona instruments both by us and other investigators.
 
In 1988, the Coordinating Board of Higher Education of Texas awarded a grant  for our reconstruction studies directed toward the reproduction of the Stradivarius.  In this major enterprise, we were able to screen out the best choices among the large variety of salts, crystals and natural polymers which were not defined by the alchemists.  Chemistry has proved to be an essential tool in our efforts to recreate the mellow yet brilliant sound of the old string instruments.
 
Our results became known from numerous public lectures sponsored since 1977 by the American Chemical Society, and the resulting popular news accounts have influenced violinmaking worlwide.  For the first time, we are beginning to understand what makes a violin great and how to translate this knowledge into actual practice.
 
The proof is in the pudding, and this CD offers the first comparison of the old Stradivarius flavor (1697) with a recent recipe.  Our violin, made in collaboration with master Guang Yue Chen in 1991, has a similar combination of focus and brilliance as a typical Stradivarius.  One should not forget that the tonal beauty of both violins is also due to the exquisite artistry of Zina Schiff.  We have decided to give the listeners the chance to guess without prejudice which movement is intoned on which violin, while hoping that the entire menu will be found delectable.  The Strad was heard on tracks 1,3,4,7,8, and 11; the rest of the music was on the Nagyvary-Chen violin.
 
We dedicate this recording to the 125th anniversary celebration of Texas A&M University  whose multifaceted public service has accommodated my search for the holy grail of  Stradivarius.
 
Joseph Nagyvary

A note from Dr. Attila E. Pavlath, president, American Chemical Society:

"Professor Joseph Nagyvary has been the pioneer of the chemical paradigm in violinmaking for over a quarter century. As one of the most popular speakers of the American Chemical Society with over 250 lectures, Nagyvary has marshalled a convincing body of evidence for the role of chemistry in the sublime art of lutherie. He has brought the Stradivarius from its Olympian heights down to Earth since his theories have begun to yield practical benefits, as can be ascertained by the present recording.  This is a fitting way to celebrate the 125th anniversary of a great university."

This recording was made during October 12 to 16,  2001 at California State University at San Diego in Studio B by Dr. Patrick Walker, of WalkerVision Interarts.  A single Royer/Speiden SF-12 stereo ribbon microphone was used  and the editing did not include any manipulation of the soundwaves in order to provide for a fair comparison of the two violins.

[Epitome]

Hi Henri, I believe there is. Thank you for providing this important information. I have been experimenting with naturally occuring substances
that would have been available to liuthiers and more especially painters from 1570 onwards. I will go into more detail when I get more time. Good modern violins can indeed be very difficult to distinguish from older violins from the cremonese masters and I have no doubt that when I get a chance to listen to these mp3 files I will not find it easy. We'll see...
 
[Edit] Henri, I had a listen to it and it confirms for me exactly what I have been saying for years  . It's a bitter pill for some to swallow and Dr. Joseph Nagyvary will meet with a lot of criticism and derision. High end fiddle dealers and investers dont want to hear these facts. It turns their world upside down.

[Epitome]

Over the last 100 years or so, physicists have made considerable progress in providing an understanding of the way the violin works. Two notable contributers were Helmholt and C.V.Raman. In the 19th century the old Italian violins underwent a process of modernization. Stradivarius, Guarneri and other violins emerged with an "enhanced" tone as a result of scientifically guided "improvements" by restorers in France ,England and the United States.There is little doubt that these exaulted masters of the art would be amazed to find that the modern musical world credits them with having  a great secret. They could never have forseen that their instruments would undergo such  extensive modifications in the 19th century to produce the kind of sound we so value today.
 
Indeed, those sounds would have been totally strange if not impossible in their time.
Science has not yet provided us with any empirical evidence for the existence of any measurable properties that would set the Cremonese instruments apart from the finest violins made by skilled craftsman today. Indeed, some leading soloists do play on modern instruments. However, top soloists today - and, not surprisingly, violin dealers, who have a vested interest in maintaining the Cremonese legend of superiority - remain utterly unconvinced.
 
Many violinists say they can distinguish an instrument with a fine "Italian Cremonese sound" from one with, say, a more "French" tone. I do not doubt this. The difficulty is in being able to characterize such properties in meaningful physical terms. In generations to come, who knows, modern instruments might easily become the subject of that same search for the unknown.

The big secret is not in the varnish. Clearly there were many variations of the same basic composition from different workshops. Neither is it in the wood density or any other vaguely specific variable. From about 1570 to 1750 there existed a common varnish in Italy composed of linseed oil and pine resin or walnut oil as was used more frequently by delGesu.
 
The beautiful appearance of these varnishes today has a lot to do with age. Fundamental to their diverse beauty is the ground and wood preparation.
Different non-destructive or micro destructive methods Py-GC/MS, IR microscopy, SEM/EDX, EDXRF, synchrotron radiation-based techniques have been applied to the study of a large and representative number of ancient varnished musical instruments from museum collections and very interestingly crystal particles are found on the wood under the layers of varnish. This suggests some kind of mineral application was used as a ground layer. Remember too that violins with hardly any varnish remaining sound equally good.
 
Simone Fernando Sacconi examined hundreds of Stradivari violins and his findings are an extremely valuable contribution to this subject. His main publication was 'I segreti di Stradivari', translated into many languages and sold worldwide.
Simone Sacconi is recognized as one of the most important contemporary violin makers. His book explains the construction techniques used by Stradivari with clarity and precision. It is considered an indispensable reference for the professional violin maker.

There are many variations too on  the wood preparation and the composition of the ground layer. The wood treatment prior to the laying on of any ground is very important though hugely controversial and one which I will not address here.
 
Assuming your violin is now ready in the white and before you apply the ground slightly dampen the wood  to raise grain and nibs. When dry cut with steel wool.

In a jar prepare a 50/50 mix of water, salt and vinegar. Add some steel nails to the mix or a ball of steel wool if you dont have nails. Remove the soaked steel wool and leave it out doors over night. Next day place it back in the vinegar/water/salt  jar. Leave it for a good few hours.
 
Next apply it to the violin all over with your varnishing brush as if you were varnishing. I reccomend you do a test piece so you understand how it works. Don't hang about where there is end grain high absorption. Leave to dry. You now have a nicely fully tanned instrument.  Any uneveness in colour can be retouched. If you wish you can skip this and wait for the sun.

Now, we make up some Vernice Bianco, with a slight difference. Beat the white of one egg to a frothy mix and then add a teaspoon of Alum. This will turn your Albumin into a white paste. Apply to the violin either with a small sponge (1 1/2"x 1 1/2") or brush. You will notice when dry, tiny shining crystals. You should not notice any raised grain after this if you done the cutting back with steel wool properly. That's it, Your done!!

Other preparations I switch to sometimes are 'propolis', potassium silicate and pozzolano.
I will give you a good oil varnish receipy shortly.

[sparky]

The demand for good modern violins will rocket pretty soon I think. There is a thick veil of snobbery in the violin business and modern instrument makers have played second fiddle for too long. Who is responsible for all the hood winking that has gone on for more than a century? The whole business is not now so sacrosanct and like the banks, beginning to show weaknesses.

[Henrig]

Hello Jed,

and John who has sent a nice e-mail.

Thank you, Jed, for explaining how you think about the subject.

I don't know whether or not modern instruments can sound like the old Italians.
But I know they, the experts, want to keep the price high.

Henri

[Henrig]

Hello Jed, John and other members,

I have read this:

Contrary to actual belief, the sound of an instrument only plays a minor
role in determining it's value. Although sound is the most important
aspect for a musician, the ever subjective notion of "sound" prohibits an
objective appraisal of it's value.

Are there Stradivari or Guarneri violins not sounding good?
Do you know a Strad or Guarneri violin with a bad sound and sold for millions?

Question: Does the sound not matter to a collector?

Henri

[fiddlinaround]

Hi Henri,
 
The word "subjective" (what ever that means) has alwys been used by dealers to evade the issue of the true relationship between tone quality and the value of musical instruments.
First off, if the old Italian masters couldn't make new instruments that "sounded good" they would have never become so highly sought after. The proof of a pudding is in how it tastes! The proof of a violin is in how it sounds, not in the name of the one who made it!  (No maker's work will always be of competely equal tone quality from beginning to end of their lives, but neither does "chance" bring good results consistently.) 
 
It is a known fact that a number of famous instruments have been well preserved - as it is known that a number of them have been brought to the brink of permanent ruin. This can only come about in two ways: on purpose, or, by accident. (The hand of destruction is impartial.)
 
If Stradivari and Guarneri del Gesu violins could not to this day consistently outperform all that comes afterwards, why then are not greater numbers of more modern instruments being played by the world's greatest concert violinists? Why do they not "sell" for comparitive prices?  It is merely the great age and good state of preservations that gives the "advantage" over modern instruments. I've handled and played but one of Jed's violins. - And, I can say with all certainty that it was indeed a very fine sounding piece because I compared it directly with a 1719 Stradivari and a 1717 Joseph Antonio Guarneri del Gesu! The only real difference was in the slightly quicker response and greater resonances within the harmonic box of the older violins. (And I know the cure for that!)
 
(I have never met with an Amati, Stradivari, or Guarneri family fiddle that "sounded bad", but I have met with some that "sounded a little better than others". 
 
Of course the sound matters to a connoisseur/collector, my dear friend! We know that "they" haven't all been accounted for, and that's why we do what we do!