Topic: Artist or engineer

[Epitome]

Looking at and comparing instruments by Antonia Stradivari and Joseph Del Gesu today I drew the following conclusion.  Strad violins display a perfection that one would associate with great engineering: a total obeyance to the laws of geometry and symmetry. I make this distinction between these two concepts because the human eye may see beauty in one  but not necessarily in the other. A peek at some modern architecture will confirm this. Antonio was absolutely bound by these laws and for me  because of that he was less an artist than Del Gesu.
One could argue that Antonio had as his goal the perfect acoustical box that would serve his ultimate goal in the hands of the finest violinists. He certainly achieved this but with some help in the century to follow when  England France and America carried out the necessary modifications to his violins in order for them to have the necessary power to take us up to the present day.
His instruments were no exception to this process. Also, whatever century you live in there are always financial constraints placed upon the maker and it is often best to stick with what works. Stradivari was at the top of his game and whatever advantages that brought him it certainly encouraged some decorative work  on the ribs and scrolls of future violins. This essentially baroque style I find ugly to my senses.
Is there room for artistic expression in violin making then? If you take a look at the Kreisler violin 1733 by Del Gesu you will see the beginnings of frustration with the classical design. This guy is less fortuitous and throwing himself and his feelings right in to it. We can?t know for certain whether he was mad or not but he might have been rebelling against the symmetry of line and curve that give us instant pleasure. He didn?t over do it because the f holes are quite normal. Nine years later though he was far more courageous and expressing his own personality as opposed to being guided by the harmony of geometry and  perfect symmetry . He was probably sick at looking at perfection and for him this was not exactly liberating.
In the Canone 1742 Del Gesu has altered outline, corners and F hole design, expanded the bouts outwards, furthermore he has increased the thickness of the back plate. This man is now breaking with accepted practices and working outside the box?..and inside. He has found a freedom  of expression that will enable him to be expressive, imaginative and free! How could you possibly be guided by a compass after that? Give me a Del Gesu first!

As a passing note the Canone as John Thornton mentioned somewhere has its original neck. A piece of wood was added to the heel to give it the modern length and also a bit was added to where it joins the button to give it height!!!!!

[admin]

For all those reasons and more the work of Antonio Stradivari is very recognisable. Far more difficult with other violin makers who exhibit a bit of flair but that is not so common in violin making.

[fiddlinaround]

Hi Jed, I have often wondered why anyone would alter "Il Cannone", especially since the original setup never seemed to bother Nicolo Paganini.
And yes, the work of Antonio Stradivari is easily recognized, but I think only to the eyes of those who really study his instruments.
Perhaps one might find the above image of interest? (The sound holes of 2 (two) Guarneri del Jesus violins are present) 

[admin]

Hi, are there two pictures spliced together?

[fiddlinaround]

Hi, are there two pictures spliced together?

 Actually, it's a multilayer image and I create them in order to determine whether a definitive proportional relationship exists between a "known" entity and the "unknown" entity.
Slight differences are always found, though. However, when like objects (from the same or a similar source) are subjected to direct comparisons, the obvious soon becomes apparent. (At least that's how I see it.) 

[Epitome]

Shame that pic is not real sharp. I'm entrigued by the colour similarities.
Can you sharpen up that one for me please John.

[fiddlinaround]

Shame that pic is not real sharp. I'm entrigued by the colour similarities.
Can you sharpen up that one for me please John.

Jed, unless a multilayer image is of the exact and same object illustrated the definition won't be as high as one would like. I believe you've already discerned the soundholes of at least one of the violins illustrated. Since 'Il Cannone's' top varnish is of a deeper tint -- red/brown  -- the purple undertones become apparent when viewed through the more orange/red top varnish of the other violin. Will send few rather interesting collages your way asap.
Charles Reade would be very proud of you! 

[Epitome]

John, I have spent my whole day varnishing and had loads of time to look at violins by Joseph Del Gesu And Antonio and others. I have a whole lot of pictures and posters in my workshop and having coated up those two violins again a thought struck me right between the eyes. Can you take a couple of measurements from the 1719 Strad for me. I want the measurement from nut to top edge of plates(usually 130mm) and the  length of string from nut to bridge,(usually 13inches or approx)
As exactly as your eyes permit! I want to check something!
That would be smashing!

Also on another note, totally off subject whats a good diet like in Alabama.
I tend to eat out in restaurents quite often but when at home I eat meat and lots of vegetables. Broccoli is supposed to cure everything in sight, do you have that over there.

[fiddlinaround]

John, I have spent my whole day varnishing and had loads of time to look at violins by Joseph Del Gesu And Antonio and others. I have a whole lot of pictures and posters in my workshop and having coated up those two violins again a thought struck me right between the eyes. Can you take a couple of measurements from the 1719 Strad for me. I want the measurement from nut to top edge of plates(usually 130mm) and the  length of string from nut to bridge,(usually 13inches or approx)
As exactly as your eyes permit! I want to check something!
That would be smashing!

Also on another note, totally off subject whats a good diet like in Alabama.
I tend to eat out in restaurents quite often but when at home I eat meat and lots of vegetables. Broccoli is supposed to cure everything in sight, do you have that over there.

Hi Jed!

RE: 1719 Stradivari: Quick approximate measurements.

Neck length:   129.5 mm  (nut to top plate edge - left side)
Stop length:   190.0 mm  (belly edge to foot of bridge - right side)
String length:  323.0 mm  (nut to front of bridge - down the centre of fingerboard)
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(Measurements taken over the archings)

Back length:   361.0 mm
Upper bout:    167.0 mm
Centre bout:   115.0 mm
Lower bout:    207.0 mm
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Growing season is in full bloom. We've got every kind of nutritious vegetable you can imagine growing here (or near here). Come on over!!

[Henrig]

Jed, what did you or do you want to check and would perhaps be smashing?

As exactly as your eyes permit! I want to check something!
That would be smashing!

I am just curious to know the answer or did you give the answer in private?

Thank you.

Henri

[Epitome]

Henri, I wanted to check the neck measurement and it's 129.5mm.
I also wanted the back length which is 361.0mm

I have been very busy lately and have had not the time to figure these out but will do in due course. I need to get back to John on another thing as well but alas I've been preoccupied with other work.

Maybe John, if you read this you can tell me also if the neck has a piece added to the end where it goes into the upper block.

[fiddlinaround]

Hi Jed and Henri,

There are no visible alterations to this instrument in terms of the neck being lengthened or replaced.

Otherwise -

The insertion of single grains of late summer growth spruce/pine into the top plate (to seal the cracks), the cleats underneath,  -- and a loosely woven cloth or light canvas patch (sympathetic support) on the inside of the left lower rib are the only alterations or additions I have ever found.

[edit] The sound bar appears to have been replaced.

Each and every aspect I have researched points straight to the authentic work of Antonio Stradivari, and none other.

I look forward to hearing from you soon, and thanks for all you do.

Dear Henri, as always, please accept my warmest regards and deepest respect for your continued interest and support in these matters.

[Henrig]

Dear John, I think you are in a difficult position.
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A violin of the Baroque period with a neck that hasn't been changed, with the modern length.
Or was Antonio Stradivari his time far ahead?
Perhaps I don't see it clearly.
The neck of 'Il Canone' has been changed as Jed mentioned!
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As a passing note the Canone as John Thornton mentioned somewhere has its original neck. A piece of wood was added to the heel to give it the modern length and also a bit was added to where it joins the button to give it height!!!
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I try to be neutral and observe things and I am not an expert of violins, I am a computer nerd and it's my job, yes or no and nothing between.
One little true story, I will call my violin a Cerin violin, if you have no objections.
Please look, if you are interested, for additional information on http://hometown.aol.com/violinid2/tips.html and for some photographs of my violin.
I showed Mr. Stefano Pio of Venice Research photographs of my violin.
Website: www.veniceresearch.com
He told me he was busy with a new book of Violinmakers from Venice of the 18th century and later on, Liuteri Sonadori, 1750-1870.
He looked at the photographs and he told me my violin is a genuine item of Marco Antonio Cerin, a pupil of Anselmo Bellosio, who made many violins and Cerin just a few and is very rare, to publish in his new book.
So I went to a photographer to make professional photographs and sent them to him.
According to the label: Marcus Antonius Cerin Alumnus Anselmi Belosii fecit Venetiae 1798, the violin has been made in 1798.
The violin has no neck graft and the neck is original.
After about six weeks the book was to be ready and I would receive a copy of him.
But then came a disappointing e-mail that my violin wouldn't be published because there was no neck graft or replacement of the neck.
According to Mr. Stefano Pio they began with making violins with a modern neck on 01-01-1800, not one year before, because my violin has been made in December 1798!
So my violin has been rejected as an authentic item.

John, you already know this, but I am anxious about the opinion of Jed.
I don't know what to say about your Stradivari 1719, but my experiences with experts are not so positive and experts are happy when violins of before 1800 have a neck graft.

Thank you for reading.

Henri

[fiddlinaround]

Henri,

I am in no difficult position at all. Any time any person, especially a so-called 'expert' (such as Pio) makes a universal declaration that violin necks were made only in a certain way beginning on a specific date is pure hogwash, a mythical figment of his imagination. Even worse, such a comment is an outright lie!

The presence or absence of a neck graft, next extension, the angle at which the neck is set, or the length of the neck on any particular instrument has absolutely nothing to do with the age or the authenticity.

Categorically, I know as much about the working manner of Antonio Stradivari and Joseph Antonio Guarneri del Jesu as any person on the planet and no one can convince me that these makers worked in any way other than the complete freedom of originality. The 'experts' want to maintain a strict control over the market (as they have always done), anyone who goes against the grain is automatically classified as a delusional lunatic.

Well, my dear friend, I am most certainly not deluded! Did I not state that your Cerin violin was authentic when you posted images of it on Maestronet? Yes! Did those so-called "experts" (on Maestronet) immediately band together and denied your instrument at every turn? Because "expert so and so" said it was impossible? Yes they did. Did I waver from my assessment of your violin? No!

Then -- did you not turn to Robert and Glen Wright for an unbiased assessment via the VIOLIN ID Computer Program? Yes, most certainly!  Did the results of their tests (and research) show that your violin was as close to being authentic (as humanly possible) based on the highest percentages of a strict set of parameters: which establishes the closest matching instrument/maker based on the proportional relationships between two of a kind? Yes!

Again, I say! Henri, you may rest assured that the 1798 Marco Antonio Cerin in your possession is the authentic work of the maker whose original label it still bears. That, sir, is a cold hard fact of life. Anyone who states otherwise is a fool.

[edit]

Cesare Candi was 'commissioned to restore' Paganini's 1743 Guarneri in 1937. That's a just little bit late for anyone to "decide" the neck in that fiddle needed to be altered for any reason, as far as I'm concerned. There may have been a small crack or two in the top that needed attention. However, I would not classify that proceedure as a "commissioned restoration".

[Epitome]

Hi, I am posting John Thornton's last communication with me here with his permission and we will take it from there. Here goes:

Now then, I ask you these questions:

Do you think it possible that Antonio Stradivari never was able to figure out the simplicity of making a neck root fit into a properly shaped mortise in the head block? Do you think it possible that other Cremonese masters weren't capable of figuring out the same thing?

Have you ever truly studied the manuscript, "Joseph Guarneri, His Work And Master", published in 1906 by Horace Petherick? If not, I suggest you get a copy (or download it off the Google eBook site). The information Petherick provided (in that book) will totally astound you, I promise.

Do you think it not possible that the Cremonese masters never made a neck length to what "modern" standards are called today? Rest assured, they did. Research will reveal that information, and it is absolute fact. In fact the first violin I ever read about or heard about mentioned as having a neck of "modern" length was made by Jakob Stainer! How about dem apples?!

Have you ever seen a Guarneri del Jesu with one (particular) type of original neck configuration? In this fashion? With the root extended into the corpus and the ribs fitted into slots cut into the sides of the neck, then held in place by wedges of pine? They do in fact exist and I do in fact own one, a very late period in almost pristine condition. Have you ever seen the inside of del Jesu with the ribs burnt to a crisp? Have you ever seen the inside of a del Jesu with no linings? Have you ever seen the inside of a del Jesu with no point blocks and maple linings? (Allison Krauss owns it.)

Have you ever seen the inside of a del Jesu with only a single nail through the head block? (That particular configuration is another way he did it, according to Petherick).

Have you ever seen a del Jesu with double purfling and ornamental Celtic Knotwork up the middle of the back? Have you ever seen a long pattern Stradivari done that way?

I've seen all of this with my own eyes, and I know they were authentic instruments because (except for three of the Guarnerii and the Stradivari) the violins still bore the maker's undisturbed original labels.
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As you know, depending on who carried out these neck modifications there were a couple of options open to them. Most choose the neck graft scenario while some choose to add a piece to the end of the neck plus a piece on the heel to give the extra height. Those people like Hills didn't like the idea of adding two pieces, one for length and another for height....too many joints......jed
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Neck "modifications" and/or replacements were all too often un-necessary (and unwarranted) - and the practice of such began as a fashion prevailing in certain musical social circles (in Paris) during the early 19th century. (The original configuration of the "Il Cannone" never bothered the greatest violinist who ever lived:  why then, did Cesare Candi screw up such a great part of Cremonese violin making history? (Because it created a greater public illusion of "authenticity" to a violin that needed nothing at all.) {J. B. Vuilaume did the same thing to the 1693 Harrison and the 1716 Messiah, and he was a god -damned ooops! for doing anything to either, as far as I am concerned}
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Is it possible that there is a piece added to the end but you can't see it because it is in line with the rib, although the tilt should show a short line. If as you say the distance from nut to edge is 129.5mm and the neck is set in the block we have to some how explain this......jed
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I took the top off the Stradivari (February 2005) in order to reseat the heel of the neck into the head block. There is no evidence (that I noticed at the time) of the neck ever being replaced, lengthened, or tilted at a different angle.

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Maybe I am over looking something here that might explain it!!!
regards
Jed